More Than Anything: We Love Vaggie

We’re giving Vaggie the spotlight she deserves. From her history in Heaven, to her fierce loyalty and leadership at the Hazbin Hotel, we explore what makes her one of the most complex characters in Hell. We’ll unpack her past to see what it says about her relationships and identity and why she’s become one of our favorites.

Transcript

Vaggie Appreciation Part 1

[Rose]

Welcome back to the Hazbin Sisters Podcast where we delve into the inner depths of Hazbin Hotel. I’m your host Rose.

[Rain]

And I’m your host Rain, and today we’re talking all about Vaggie.

[Rose] (4:26)

So Vaggie's story and character are often overlooked. But we're here to talk about why she's actually one of the most compelling characters in the series and why we love her. 

[Rain]

We love Vaggie!

[Rose]

We love Vaggie. But was Vaggie an instant favorite? 

[Rain]

Yeah. Okay. So for me, no.

[Rose]

Also me, no. Not an instant fave.

[Rain]

I did really love the songs that she was in.

[Rose]

Yeah, her songs are some of the best to sing.

[Rain]

Yeah, those were an instant “wow” for me. So I really love singing her songs, and she is amazing hispanic and lesbian rep, but the character did not immediately hook me.

[Rose]

She is a subtle and easy to miss part of a first-watch of Hazbin.

[Rain]

Yes. I think she is just a more subtle character.

[Rose]

She is a subtle character because compared to the rest of the Hotel Cast, there are so many other, louder characters that demand your attention. Alastor, obviously.

[Rain] (5:29)

Alastor - I can't even deny. I was so taken.

[Rose]

If you try to watch this show and you just ignore Alastor-

[Rain]

-you're gonna see so much more in the show!

[Rose]

You're going to catch a lot more because he's demanding so much attention the whole time!

[Rain]

Also, something that is fun about Alastor is that he takes you into the story.

He says “Hello there, you wayward sinner! Do you like blood, violence, and depravity of a sexual nature? Of course you do!”

[Rose]

“That's why you’re in hell!”

[Rain]

Yes - that was the hook that I was like, I'm sat, I'm listening. I do like those things. Tell me more. 

So immediately, Alastor grips you, and that whirlwind that he takes you on is really hard to stop watching.

[Rose] (6:58)

Exactly. He’s hypnotic. And I think Charlie is right there with you, just as taken, just as ready to go along. So we, the audience, have no chance to look away.

Then Vaggie is at the complete opposite end. She's immediately suspicious of Alastor, so if you liked his and Charlie’s drama, and it's so compelling, Vaggie’s attitude just feels like a real buzzkill.

[Rain]

Oh my god. You're absolutely right. See, I was thinking, she's playing the “Straight Man” role in their duo, and she’s saying what a lot of us would probably be saying in her situation, where you have your partner going “I'm gonna go sing in the streets!” And you're like, well, hold on now. You know? I feel like a lot of people would relate to that. They would be the one saying “We need to think about things. Slow down.”

[Rose]

She does do what I would be doing in hell, honestly.

[Rain]

Okay, when you said buzzkill earlier, my first thought was “That’s really negative.” But that's what it genuinely felt like when I was first watching the show because I saw that Charlie's going to go out and sing, and she's going to dance in the streets.

And I don’t want to stop her! I’m ready to just have fun. And then Vaggie says “Wait. No. Hold On.”

So, yeah, it does feel like, well, a buzzkill. I don't know a better word.

[Rose]

Sometimes being moderate and reasonable is a buzzkill, or a mood killer. And that's just what the audience is experiencing on the first watch, tonal dissonance between fancy and reason.

[Rain]

Yeah, this is just my first watch impression. That's true.

So that's why she was not an immediate favorite for me.

[Rose]

Right. I wanted to go sing and dance and get carried away with Alastor's shenanigans, too. Like, there's nothing else I wanted more, and it kind of felt like Vaggie was getting in the way.

[Rain]

I've never thought about it like that, but I think that is why you get that impression of Vaggie. You just want to go “Come on. Let's have fun.”

[Rose]

Right! Because Charlie is so aligned with what you are feeling on first watch. But what Vaggie is doing is so important, and sometimes I wish she was even more assertive.

[Rain] (9:57)

I know!

[Rose]

Vaggie seems conflicted both by wanting to give Charlie what she wants and protecting her. And that's what she had to face with Pentious, you know, in episode two.

[Rain]

Yes, whether to let him in the hotel or not. She has a lot of those moments where you can tell she doesn't want to give in, but then she's like, alright, Charlie. I love you. Anything for my beautiful wife. 

[Rose]

It’s very “As you wish.” Very Westly and Princess Buttercup.

[Rain]

Yes.

[Rose]

Wesley, for his princess, Will go through heaven and hell, and now mostly hell.

[Rain]

And now just hell.

[Rose]

Now just hell.

[laughing]

[Rose]

So on first watch, I wasn't thinking about it. I was just experiencing it.

[Rain]

Yeah, so did we miss Vaggie's story the first few watches?

[Rose]

Oh, 100%.

[Rain]

I did.

[Rose] (11:40)

Which is ridiculous because she has two duets. And she chimes in for Happy Day in Hell.

She’s got Whatever it Takes - what else does she sing?

[Rain]

Oh, the reprise of More Than Anything.

[Rose]

Yeah! Almost nobody else gets that many duets.

[Rain]

Except for Carmilla.

[Rose]

Except for Carmilla.

[Rain]

Carmilla also gets duets.

[Rose]

I can't believe Carmilla gets as much duetting as Vaggie.

[Rain]

I know.

[Rose]

To get that many songs, you have to be important, but it's not clear why Carmilla will be yet. Obviously, as Charlie's main love interest, of course, Vaggie is important.

[Rain]

Of course.

[Rose]

But it's unclear how Carmilla's gonna become a much bigger player, yet it's inevitable.

[Rain]

She's so prominent in this first season.

[Rose]

Her name is on everybody's lips. She is the one to know.

[Rain]

Yeah. We cannot underestimate her having access to angelic weapons also. That's huge.

[Rose]

I can't even conceive of the implications.

[Rain]

She also has that fortress that nobody can get into, and that seems pretty big. Not that I think you could just wander into, say, V Tower, but-

[Rose]

I think you could wander into V Tower.

[Rain]

I think maybe you could get in. I don't think you could get into Carmilla's fortress at all.

[Rose]

Uh-uh. 

[Rain]

I don't think you could find a way in there.

[Rose]

I don't think you could get into the main elevator in V Tower, but you could get into the lobby.

[Rain]

But you could not cross Carmilla if you wanted.

[Rose]

No. Vaggie had to pound on the door like, let me in!

[Rain]

Let me in, bitch!

[laughing]

[Rose] (14:05)

I love how that's how she goes about all of hell. Like, let me in, you idiot. 

[Rain]

I know. I do love that about her. She has this attitude of “I'm supposed to be here. I belong here. This is my town, bitch.”

[Rose]

She has no respect for any of the power systems in hell. 

[Rain]

Yeah. I think that's partly her being, figuratively, married to the princess of hell.

[Rose] (14:34)

Which gets her some respect, I imagine. And because she's used to killing sinners. She sees them all equally and, probably, beneath her in a lot of ways.

[Rain]

That's literally what I was gonna say. Just that I think she does think she's above everyone. 

[Rose]

She is a little bit.

[Rain]

She's not wrong. Yeah, she is a little bit. She didn't do anything wrong to get there.

[Rose]

She probably doesn't have to stay in hell.

[Rain]

Oh, that's really interesting. What do you mean?

[Rose]

Well, the only people keeping her in hell were technically Lute and Adam, so now that Adam's dead, it's only Lute and the exorcists, I think, who know she’s fallen.

[Rain]

Now this comes down to the question: is Vaggie fallen or was she left there in hell?

[Rose]

It's really unclear.

[Rain]

It is really unclear. Because if she's fallen, then she can't come back to heaven.

[Rose]

Is there a registry of fallen angels?

[Rain]

Okay, well, Sera seems to have some sort of registry.

[Rose]

Wouldn’t Saint Peter have that list and be like “Oh, hey, Vaggie. Looks like you're stricken from the exorcist list. Sorry.”

[Rain] (15:32)

I do think they have something like that just because of the way that Sera says, in episode six, “If you start to question, you could end up like Lucifer: fallen.”

[Rose]

I always assumed Vaggie couldn't go back because they took her wings.

[Rain]

Oooh!

[Rose]

Like, she literally just can't fly there.

[Rain]

Wow. Okay. This is something I still haven't even realized about her story - that she might not be fallen?

[Rose]

To me, the story reads like she was left there.

[Rain]

Wow. Okay. So Lute dug out her eye and cut off her wings as a way to say “You're not making your way back here, bitch.”

[Rose]

Yeah, and if Vaggie did go back while Adam was around, he would just kick her out.

Which we kind of get that vibe when she does go back to heaven.

[Rain]

Yeah, they’re immediately malicious and say something like “What are you doing here Vaggie?”

[Rose]

Yeah. Immediately.

[Rain]

Yeah. Wow. I never realized that interaction could imply that Adam and Lute were the ones keeping Vaggie from heaven and not a set of archaic rules, you know?

[Rose]

Yeah, Sera didn't look at Vaggie and say “Wow. What are you doing here?”

[Rain]

No, but did she know she was an angel?

[Rose]

Apparently, nobody else knew. So Sera didn’t notice she was an angel. Peter probably didn't seem to know. He looked at Charlie and Vaggie and registered nothing. Maybe cause Adam and Lute removed her halo? That might be the signifier she needed.

[Rain] (17:02)

Yeah. Wow. This is really interesting because I assumed she was fallen.

[Rose]

She's not not fallen. It might be that one can be fallen like Lucifer and it may be that whatever happened to Vaggie is also a type of fallen.

[Rain]

I just never even considered that there could be different types of fallen for angels because in my mind, heaven has, like, a registry of fallen angels. And so it’d be very hard for a fallen angel to get back into heaven because they’d be able to refer to their masterlist of fallen angels, essentially.

[Rose]

Counterpoint.

[Rain]

Yes.

[Rose]

Not everything is spelled in ink.

[Rain]

Sera’s line coming back. Okay. Damn.

[Rose]

Heaven looks orderly.

[Rain]

It does.

[Rose]

But if Sera's word is to be extrapolated, there's a lot of wiggle room.

[Rain]

There's a lot of wiggle. Oh, that is so interesting.

[Rose]

Adam and the exorcists are off the books, for instance.

[Rain]

Oh. Oooh, wow, that's gross. That's icky, actually. He's like a military force that is not overseen or checked by anyone.

[Rose]

Yeah he's a secret police.

[Rain]

Thank you. That's the word. He's the head of a secret police that is not being checked by anybody.

[Rose]

He's an ICE officer.

[Rain]

Yeah. Oh, shit. Oh my god. Okay. I know Adam's bad, but it’s so much worse when you put it in context like that.

[Rose]

I know. His song is, like, one of the best.

[Rain]

Okay. He's really hard not to love.

[Rose]

That contrast is on purpose, him being despicable and charming all at once, and it works so well.

[Rain]

Right, and obviously, he is the absolute worst, and, actually, on first watch, I fucking hated his guts.

[Rose]

Oh my god. He spoke for, like, three seconds-

[Rain]

And I was like, kill him.

[Rose]

Kill him now.

[Rain]

Kill him now. But of course, after multiple watches and after growing attached to all the characters, I now love him.

[Rose]

And the way that the ending fight with Charlie goes, he goes “Okay.” Just the way he said ‘okay’ was like, damn it.

[Rain]

No, that got, like, everyone. I've seen this sentiment often. People saying “Wait. Why was that kinda, you know?”

[Rose]

Yeah. Why did that go so hard?

[Rain]

Yeah. There's something about that ending that brings you around to hating him less for some reason. I mean, he does die, so that helps.

[Rose] (19:36)

I wasn’t sad when he died. I was really glad for it, but I remember thinking “Oh, I was just starting to like hating you.”

[Rain]

Yes. Yes. I was just starting to enjoy hating you is exactly how I felt too. Especially in that first scene in episode one with Charlie, where he is just the fucking worst.

[Rose]

I think it made me relive every moment as someone with a gender who's had to live through a guy talking to them about things that are completely irrelevant.

[Rain]

Yep. It definitely made me relive my experiences like that as well. Kudos to the writing because that scene always manages to bring up that burning, vindictive rage in my belly where I feel like I want to murder that man.

[Rose]

You are the evil.

[Rain]

You are the evil.

[Rose] 

I know we're in hell, cannibalism, depravity, murder, what have you. But then we saw real evil in Adam. In his complete lack of empathy or acknowledgement of anyone else, let alone their suffering.

[Rain]

Exactly.

[Rose] (21:02)

So on the topic of angels, on the first few watches, if I'm not watching Vaggie, I’m probably not picking up on the weight of the implications of her being an angel. You almost can't watch Vaggie's story on the first watch because her reveals lend so much more weight to her presence. Especially once you’ve seen and digested the real corruption of heaven.

You have to watch her specifically to start digesting all the info on her character. And still try not to get distracted by Alastor.

[Rain]

Oh my god. I know. Distracted by Alastor, distracted by the Vees.

[Rose]

And then when Angel Dust is on screen, I can't look away.

[Rain]

I can't look at anyone else. I'm so sorry.

[Rose]

Fucking Angel Dust.

[Rain]

Angel dust!

[laughing]

[Rain]

So, yeah, you do have to dedicate yourself to looking at Vaggie’s story specifically because it's easily overshadowed by just how much there is to take in. So that explains a little of why we missed Vaggie's story on the first few watches. It's not her fault. She's done nothing wrong.

[Rose] (22:47)

It's a top tier story. It's super compelling. An Angel, trained to kill demons, is rescued by the princess of hell and falls in love. 

[Rain]

Yes, it’s perfect. I feel like it's easy to say “Oh, well, she's not as compelling because I didn't get her story immediately.” But I don't think you can have that mindset with this show.

[Rose]

No. Especially not this first season where they clearly cut everything down to the bone. There are no spare seconds.

[Rain]

No. And everything that's there is set up. It is a season almost entirely of set up, necessary set up. Because you have a cast of, what, 20-ish characters?

[Rose]

Easily. And there's more on the way.

[Rain]

And there’s more on the way! It's easy for somebody's story to be missed on the first few watches and still have that story be really good. There's nothing wrong with that person's story or character necessarily.

[Rose]

Yeah, it's not a crime to be reserved or subtle.

[Rain]

Exactly, so, seeing her being the stoic love interest-

[Rose] (24:17)

Yeah, so she's a stoic love interest archetype: someone who endures pain or hardship without showing their feelings and whose romance is central to the plot. And one thing that really caught me off guard was the fact that she was also the one that wore the skirt in the couple.

[Rain]

Oh, yeah. Her femininity versus the more masculine role she’s in.

[Rose]

Yeah! Like, she comes in with a bow. She's wearing a miniskirt.

[Rain]

Thigh highs.

[Rose]

Thigh highs. So, normally, I would be somebody that saw themselves really strongly in a stoic love interest.

Your Riza Hawkeyes, and such. But because Vaggie was dressed so femininely, I was confused. I was like, wait a minute. Is this character for me?

[Rain]

Oh, that's interesting. Because one of the things that threw me off about her was her aggressive personality.

[Rose]

Oh! We’re so different on this!

[Rain]

The fact that she was so confrontational. It was the aggression in her character that made me feel like I don't know how to relate to this. I'm not a soldier. I don't like fighting. Especially when she's doing the trust exercise in episode three, and she's throwing people off a building. I would never do that, so that left me thinking “What the fuck are you doing?”

[Rose]

But would you relate to her appearance?

[Rain]

See, I think I would relate to her appearance more. I think her bow, the skirt, and the thigh highs are super cute. I love it.

[Rose]

Like, I could see you wearing something like that.

[Rain]

Absolutely. Oh, that's really cool that we- 

[Rose]

Yeah. That we related to two different halves of her character! I love that complexity to Vaggie. Normally I love aggressive characters. I would absolutely throw an asshole off the roof for their own good, but I wouldn't do it in a miniskirt.

[Rain]

And I tend to be more in the Charlie position where I'm like, but that's so mean. You know? I can't throw people off a roof.

[Rose]

I wish I could throw people off roofs.

[Rain]

That's not a concern for Vaggie.

[Rose]

No! She is above all of these sinners anyway.

[Rain]

Yeah, when she's doing the trust exercise, she feels like the only way to get everyone in the hotel to learn to work together is to whip them into shape, literally.

[Rose] (26:58)

Right, because her family is a military. And so that's what formed her ideal family. They’re out to unify around violence and competition.

[Rain]

See, and I think that is what I found so off putting immediately. I felt like I couldn’t relate to that. That type of group bonding doesn’t appeal to me at all. It didn’t make me dislike Vaggie by any means, but that was an implicit reaction I ended up having.

[Rose]

There's a really intriguing blend of masculine and feminine energies in Vaggie that is just unique. You just don't see that in a lot of characters.

[Rain]

Right. I  love that about her. I really like that we both connected to different parts of her and then found the other part a little bit off putting.

[Rose]

I had no idea.

[Rain]

Me either. That's just really cool!

[Rose]

I thought “You like Vaggie the way I like Vaggie. Right?”

[Rain]

Yeah. I really love that difference in our perception of her initially. So I talked about my biases. Did you have any other biases or barriers that prevented you from relating to her?

[Rose]

My biggest bias was that I was ready for a butch girlfriend to root for, but she’s so feminine and that’s not part of how I like to gender. But Vaggie is representing a kind of femininity that’s just not allowed to exist very often. That nuance was a barrier. Then when I got to see her at the final battle, I was like, oh, this is somebody that's for me. But I had to see the whole Vaggie to understand her.

[Rain]

Yeah, her at the final battle is like another hat she can wear as opposed to finally revealing her true self because it feels like she is really comfortable in her femininity. I think that's just something really cool about her character. In a more conventional story, she would be the butch girlfriend, but instead she's extremely feminine, and she's very comfortable with it.

[Rose] (30:01)

Iconic.

[Rain]

Truly. I really love that.

[Rose]

In so many ways, she keeps the hotel together.

[Rain]

She really does. A lot of the time, when Charlie is spinning off into oblivion, Vaggie's there to say “Okay. Let's ground you back to reality.” Because, yeah, Charlie spins.

[Rose]

Charlie is a balloon.

[Rain]

Charlie is a balloon.

[Rose]

Vaggie just holds the end of her string.

[Rain]

Yeah. I want to say that's a classic Aquarius/Taurus relationship.

[Rose]

Oh. Oh, I see it. I see it completely. Are you saying Vaggie might be a Taurus?

[Rain]

I am saying Vaggie might be a Taurus. That’s the vibe I get

[Rose]

I buy that. 

[Rain]

She’s independent, she’s stubborn, but she’s also determined and loyal.

[Rose]

That's true. You can't move Vaggie if she's decided to stand somewhere. That is hallmark Taurus.

[Rain]

Yeah, with her pie-in-the-sky, dreamy girlfriend.

[Rose]

Listen. It's a great match.

[Rain]

I know. I see it. They're so good together.

[Rose]

A fallen angel and a hell princess. It's goddamn [indiscernible noises] So fucking good. God, I love them.

[Rain]

It hurts.

[Rose]

I know.

[Rain]

They're just so cute.

[Rose]

There's a part of me that loves Charlie and Vaggie completely outside of the show. No matter what's going on with the rest of the plot, there’s a little bubble where I love Charlie and Vaggie. They're a peak couple concept.

[Rain]

Same. I love seeing people put them in a million AUs. 

[Rose]

They're soulmates in every universe.

[Rain]

Correct. I love them.

[Rose]

So much. So what makes Vaggie unique or different as a character, especially in regards to other stoic, knight-in-shining-armor love interests? And when we’re talking about this archetype, we’re referring to characters like Castiel from Supernatural, Pearl from Steven Universe…

[Rain]

-and Tuxedo Mask from Sailor Moon. Yeah, I think something that makes Vaggie unique is her aggression. I feel like this type of character can be subtly aggressive or even passive aggressive.

[Rose]

Especially because this character type is usually more of a quiet stoic, more long suffering type. Pearl especially, who’s so motherly compared to Vaggie.

[Rain]

Yes. Exactly. Whereas I think Vaggie's really upfront and honest. She's a little more commanding.

[Rose]

Yes. 

[Rain]

And I feel like that is a result of Charlie not having these qualities that Vaggie does have. Charlie wants to do what Vaggie can but she’s not there yet. Vaggie's actually able to tell everyone to sit in a circle and behave.

So that is something that makes her unique among other characters that have filled this role. She's more active. She's in a more prominent role.

[Rose]

She's much more assertive.

[Rain]

Yes. Assertive. Maybe I said aggressive before.

[Rose]

Well, that was your first impression of her, that she was aggressive.

[Rain]

Yeah. Now I'm thinking “Was that just an implicit bias on my part”?

[Rose]

Yeah, gotta ask the question: Am I seeing a woman being aggressive or is it in fact assertiveness?

[Rain]

Yeah. That's why I'm thinking that was my implicit bias. Seeing Vaggie being assertive and interpreting it as aggression, which I then interpret negatively from somebody who looks like her. Yeah, I'm thinking that played a part in my own biases against the character initially.

[Rose]

Because it's not like Vaggie gets in people's faces just to harass them.

[Rain]

No.

[Rose]

She's not out to take things from people when she is being assertive. She's being a leader and telling people “This is what’s going to happen.”

[Rain]

She has very strong morals.

[Rose]

And strong boundaries.

[Rain]

And very strong boundaries, which is why I think she's one of the healthiest people in the hotel, mentally.

[Rose]

Somehow, yeah. In spite of having been raised with the exorcists. Actually, it's hard to say what childhood is to angels. What kind of history do they have? 

[Rain]

Yeah.

[Rose]

Do they have childhoods?

[Rain]

Right.

[Rose]

Do they grow up? Are they just, like, boinked into existence as is?

[Rain]

See, these are such good questions, and, at this point, we don't know.

[Rose]

Who knows? But Vaggie spent a long time with and was enculturated with the exorcists.

[Rain]

Exactly. Yes. Enculturated with the exorcists is a good way to put it.

Oh, I thought of another bias that I had. Again, this isn't her fault, but the characters in the hotel, for instance, Angel and Husk, are interacting and they've got a lot of spicy banter-

[Rose]

Mhmm.

[Rain]

But Vaggie tries to shut it down.

[Rose]

That's true.

[Rain]

She’s often the one saying “Hey, guys, cut it out.” And, as someone in the audience, I'm thinking “Wait. No. I wanna see what they do. Let them fight.”

[Rose]

You absolutely wanna play along, yeah.

[Rain]

I want to see what happens. Is Husk gonna punch Angel? What’s going to happen?

[Rose]

And she's also the only one being like, Angel, stop harassing the staff. She’s laying down rules.

[Rain]

Yeah. Like, you have to behave, sir.

[Rose]

Basic decorum.

[Rain]

Yeah. Which of course she has to do that. Somebody has to do that!

[Rose]

And, you know, when you're watching the show, you almost feel like one of the sinners in the hotel.

[Rain]

Yes.

[Rose]

You kinda feel like you're an Angel, or a Husk, or a Niffty. Just there to roll around and play with Pentious and KeeKee. So Vaggie stepping up and having any rules is sort of like, wahhhh, I don't want a rule!

[Rain]

I don't want a rule!

[laughing]

[Rose]

Which is weird because I don't feel that way about rules like harassment or apologizing in normal life.

[Rain]

No. I don't either. I think that feeling serves to show what her role is in the story and how much we need Vaggie.

[Rose]

So much.

[Rain]

The hotel cannot exist uncorralled.

[Rose]

She's just supporting Charlie's vision, which is a place where people are kind to each other at bare minimum.

[Rain]

Bare minimum.

[Rose]

And so even stepping in and saying “No, Pentious, you cannot have weapons in the hotel. You have to have some rules.”-

[Rain] (38:28)

Or telling Husk “You hurt Angel's feelings. You have to go apologize.” You know?

[Rose]

These are bare minimums.

[Rain]

These are bare minimums.

[Rose]

So she's telling people to go do bare minimum things.

[Rain]

Yeah. Which, again, comes back to that buzzkill feeling, where, you're like, well, I don't wanna.

[Rose]

You can almost feel how the hotel characters feel like they’re being told no by their mom.

[Rain]

That's exactly what it ends up feeling like.

[Rose]

And so however you feel about your mother, you might end up feeling about Vaggie.

[Rain]

Oh my god. Oh no, poor Vaggie.

[Rose]

I know.

[Rain]

Oh god. She doesn't deserve this.

[Rose]

She does not deserve this.

[Rain]

My queen, I'm so sorry.

[Rose]

So sorry. Just for having a boundary.

[Rain]

God forbid a woman has a boundary.

[Rose]

God forbid a woman has a boundary.

[Rain]

I also like how she stands up to Alastor about the commercial in a way that Charlie can't. Because Charlie's sitting there going “Well, it's kind of, you know, maybe-”, and then Vaggie says “It's bad. The word you're looking for is bad. It's bad.” And I love that. I love that she's able to be so honest and direct.

[Rose]

Isn't that what we all wanna be able to say?

[Rain]

Yes.

[Rose]

You see someone taking you for a ride, ignoring your needs, and you can just say no.

[Rain]

No. It's terrible. Bad job.

[Rose]

But so much of our whole culture is somehow dancing around calling jerk behavior bad.

[Rain]

Yeah, I see that in Charlie. I hate that she feels like she has to dance around saying what she wants to. But I love that Vaggie just comes right out and says it.

[Rose]
Same.

[Rain]

So is there anything else we want to say about Vaggie and the knight in shining armor archetype that we were comparing earlier?

[Rose]

Yes. We don't know where this story is going, but so often this type of character becomes self sacrificial to the point of self destruction.

[Rain]

That's true.

[Rose]

There are many seasons to play out, and we don't know how that's gonna show up in Vaggie. But that's something this role ends up having to face.

[Rain]

That's a really good point. We do see Vaggie self sacrifice throughout her story in the way she interacts with Charlie.

[Rose]

And those sacrifices being?

[Rain]

I think her sacrifice comes from her having to be that person who has boundaries, having to be the person who says no and puts their foot down and is “mean.” To me, that's a sacrifice.

[Rose]

Interesting.

[Rain]

But now I'm realizing that’s not a universal point of view.

[Rose]

Because I just see that as a labor. She's doing labor. But is that a sacrifice?

[Rain]

Yeah. That's a really good question.

[Rose]

What is she giving up by maintaining her boundaries?

[Rain]

She has to be vigilant. She can't relax. She has to be present and really aware of what's going on and how Charlie is feeling because Charlie is liable to cry and have a lot of big feelings. And Vaggie's always there to calm her down and be there for her. Not that that's a bad thing in their relationship, but I know that Charlie can be better at self regulating.

[Rose]

Yeah. So the emotional labor in the relationship is not equal. She’s given up some equality there.

[Rain]

Yes. And that happens in relationships.

[Rose]

Absolutely.

[Rain]

This is part of what I'm excited to talk about with our Chaggie episode and why I think they're so captivating.

[Rose]

Same. I think about when Vaggie is singing about doing whatever it takes, and you're considering this character archetype, doing whatever it takes usually goes all the way up to and including death.

[Rain]

It does. Oh my god.

[Rose]

And so when you're saying “Oh, yeah, she's sacrificing herself all the time.” That made me think, well, that doesn't bode well for her being willing to go further.

[Rain]

You're right. That just means she'll do whatever it takes.

[Rose]

Yeah.

[Rain]

She'll make the mistakes and spend her life being her partner.

[Rose]

I'll be your armor.

[Rain]

I'll be your armor. Holy shit. Okay. That is why I also feel like she is already making sacrifices. Because like I said earlier, Vaggie's ready to throw down at any moment.

[Rose]

And one thing her behavior already sacrifices is self worth.

[Rain]

Yes.

[Rose]

I think you can't talk about Vaggie without bringing up her self worth and her self image.

[Rain]

Yep. Because, like Husk says when he’s roasting everyone in episode four, she hates herself.

[Rose]

Which is interesting because I didn't see that in her when he said it.

[Rain]

I did feel like, upon an eventual watch, that was incredibly accurate. I felt like that was pretty cutting, and that's why she goes “Ugh!” Because she doesn't even want to think about that. 

I really related to that as a person who grew up in a religious cult like Vaggie did. There is so much self hatred that goes along with growing up in a cult like that and being deferent to somebody above you, like Vaggie was to Adam. 

You have to be self-sacrificing and constantly putting yourself down. That also ties into the soldier aspect of her character. A soldier is never good enough. You can always be stronger, better, faster.

[Rose]

Yeah. And your self worth is entirely tied into what you're doing in that context. So your value is what you can do. And that's Vaggie's entire MO. So I can see how that could be self-loathing.

[Rain]

Yes. We see this in the first episode when Adam says “Lute, how many demons did you kill this year?” And Lute says “Got a good 275, Sir.” That's clearly what Vaggie was also praised for.

[Rose] (46:30)

That's her number.

Like you were saying I compare the religious cult of heaven to how I, we, were raised in Mormonism. In that context, what you're doing and your self worth are one.

[Rain]

Right, yeah. And that’s why I thought that Husk was correct, that she really hates herself. Because, again, we don't know how exactly she grew up, but she was obviously enmired in that culture.

[Rose]

Dare I say: Husk wasn't quite correct though. Close, but not quite. Because I don't have evidence that she hates herself, just that she doesn't have self worth outside of Charlie at this moment.

[Rain]

I interpreted those as meaning the same thing. Because if you don't value yourself outside of the person you're living for, that means you can't have a very high opinion of yourself. If you did, you would understand you deserve a lot more than just being somebody's guard, essentially.

[Rose]

Counterpoint.

[Rain]

Yes.

[Rose]

It's very common to know you deserve some value, so you find somewhere to put it even if it couldn't be in yourself yet. It is a way to enact hope before you can hope for yourself.

[Rain]

Okay. Say more.

[Rose]

It is not complete self loathing, it's something else. It love for yourself in hiding. So this also ties into the fact that I think that Husk's entire little roasty rant in episode four was close but not correct.

[Rain]

Which I think is very interesting because I thought maybe he had nailed everybody.

[Rose]

I think he wants you to think that he nailed everybody.

[Rain]

Okay. Husk is such an enigma right now.

[Rose]

I view Husk as an unreliable narrator because I don't think anybody's a reliable narrator in Hazbin yet.

[Rain]

Oh, yeah. And that's a whole episode in and of itself.

[Rose]

So I mostly came to distrust Husk's evaluations because of the way that the club scene went down in Episode Six.

[Rain]

Yes.

[Rose]

When he was interacting with Angel, an addict in recovery, in a way that's really unhelpful to addicts. Husk doesn’t know everything, he really sucks in that scene. That’s when I realized there might be more to Husk than just somebody who tells the truth. 

[Rain] (49:15)

Oh, yeah. Because I got the impression that he’s just the bartender, he absorbs all information, and all he can do is reflect to you what he’s heard, which is the truth.

[Rose]

Yeah.

[Rain]

Yeah. I thought, Husk is truthful. Why would he lie? He's got no stakes here.

[Rose]

I believe this is an alcoholic in hell who's telling me he's telling the truth. He’s seeing everything through his own skewed angle.

[Rain]

Yes. I think that's also something that can get overlooked with Husk. He is also an alcoholic. That’s going to affect everything he says.

[Rose]

He’s an addict right beside Angel. And so when Angel's singing about being an addict, Husk's over here singing about losing his power, but what he's not singing about is also being an addict. HIs neon signs roast him with stuff like swindler, grifter and sell-out.

[Rain]

Oh, yeah. He’s talking about losing his power and being in this terrible relationship with Alastor, but Angel's being really honest. And Husk is maybe not being as honest.

[Rose]

Angel heard the correct message. He found a level of self acceptance in Husk's message that I don't know if Husk is really giving to himself.

[Rain]

I think you're right. Because otherwise Husk would have been like, I'm an alcoholic, and that's a problem. Instead he obfuscates that by saying he likes to gamble, and that’s why he lost his power.

[Rose]

I hope that Husk eventually comes to accept that about himself.

[Rain]

Yeah. I want his character to grow and do more.

[Rose]

Right, same.

[Rain]

I'm sure the next season will cover that, if not successive seasons.

[Rose]

I think we're seeing the destroyed hotel version of every single character, and my hope is that everybody gets a glow up over time the same way the hotel did.

[Rain]

Absolutely. Okay. So we were saying Husk’s assessment of Vaggie is not quite right because he is not a reliable narrator.

[Rose]

Exactly. Maybe it's close?

[Rain]

Yeah. Like you said, it's close because she knows she deserves Charlie. Charlie's fantastic, so it does take a little bit of self worth to realize that she deserves to be with someone as wonderful as Charlie.

[Rose]

And if she sees herself as better than everybody else in hell, you have a ground floor for self worth.

[Rain]

Thank you. Oh my god. You're right. She does think that because she's not a sinner. So she's not completely self loathing.

[Rose]

She's not completely self loathing. She has a lot of growth in the self worth department though.

[Rain]

Wow. I didn't realize this. I kind of took Husk at his word.

[Rose]

I mean, the show doesn't immediately step in and correct Husk, so it's really easy to miss it. They show his unreliability later. And so just like Vaggie, you have to watch the show a few times and compare what he's doing to what he's saying a few times.

[Rain] (52:47)

Oh my god. And now I feel like, Vaggie, I'm sorry. I promise I love you.

I think I may have underestimated her self worth because I imprinted so much of my own experiences of lacking self worth. I was able to really connect with her in that regard. Like we had mentioned before, growing up in a religious cult, it’s hard to develop self worth because their whole thing is to make sure you don't have any. That's cults.

[Rose]

That is cults. Yeah. That is 100% how cults and Mormonism, enculturate you. They want you that way. But Vaggie was thrown out of heaven because she was doing what she thought was right. She found Charlie through doing what she thought was right. And so that's a really complicated position. That's not necessarily zero self worth. That looks like asking yourself “Did I do the right thing? How do I view myself in the world?” I bet there's a fear of rejection and a fear of future abandonment.

[Rain]

Yeah. The line that sticks out to me and that I think exemplifies her lack of self worth is “Without you, what's the point of me?” She says that to Charlie in episode three. As someone who's been there, that was heartbreaking to hear.

[Rose]

Same, absolutely heartbreaking.

[Rain]

It made me feel like, don't say that. You are so important. That’s what made me think, oh no, her self worth is not there like it should be.

[Rose]

It’s not. It's not there like it should be. But being pointless, it's not quite self loathing. It's more meaninglessness. I’ve been both, and if you have zero self worth, that’s more self-destructive.

[Rain]

Like Angel. So I can see how it's not quite that simple because at the same time that she’s saying “What’s the point of me?”, she walks right up to Carmilla and demands to be let into her fortress. And that takes some self worth.

[Rose]

That takes a little bit of self worth.

Let's compare and contrast with Pentious, who I would say does start with zero self worth.

[Rain]

Yes. Agreed.

[Rose]

Just doing everything he can to please others to the nth degree.

[Rain]

Oh, yeah.

[Rose]

And he could not approach Carmilla in the way that Vaggie did.

[Rain]

I think that's a really good comparison, Pentious and Vaggie. That's a good spectrum, and Pentious found it a little bit at the end there.

[Rose]

He inspired us all by going from actual zero to confessing his love.

[Rain]

So cute.

[Rose]

Pentious.

[Rain]

Pentious.

[Rose]

Okay, okay, I can't get distracted.

[Rain]

But I think that's a good comparison because then you can look at Vaggie who would never have put up with the stuff Pentious put up with.

[Rose]

No.

[Rain]

She has a lot more self worth than that. So I do think it's more nuanced, and that's really cool actually. I like that you've changed my perspective here because, like I said, it was really easy to just take Husk at his word that Vaggie hates herself.

[Rose]

I definitely took his assessment at face value too, at first. I remember thinking “Oh, wow. Is that really how everybody's doing on the inside? How did Husk come by these insights? Did I just miss this?”

[Rain]

Oh, and you know what? Vaggie's never going and getting drunk at the bar and talking to Husk.

[Rose]

No.

[Rain] (56:20)

So, like, sure. He might have observed the same sort of conversations between Vaggie and Charlie that we, as the audience, did. And that could have led him to the conclusion that she doesn't value herself very much. But I don’t think he’s privy to the same insights about Vaggie as he would be, for example, about Angel, who’s probably going to the bar, getting drunk, and saying whatever to him.

[Rose]

Yeah, he doesn’t know Vaggie half as well as he knows Angel. And I think there is a part of Angel that hates himself.

[Rain]

There absolutely is.

[Rose]

You don't go get fucked up and get into dangerous situations without the self loathing.

[Rain]

I would say you're not an addict without self loathing.

[Rose]

Because what is addiction but a way to get away from yourself?

[Rain]

That's exactly it.

[Rose]

And Vaggie is clean as a whistle.

[Rain]

Yep. She's present with herself all the time.

[Rose]

So I have to wonder, is Husk projecting a little bit?

[Rain]

Oh my god.

[Rose]

I'm just curious.

[Rain]

That is such a good question. Coming from the perspective where I've taken Husk at his word, I'm realizing that's silly now because he's an addict too. He's a drunk. And I happen to know a little bit about that.

[Rose]

And a gambling addict. Another kind of addiction. He’s a drunk and a gambler. An addict stack.

[Rain]

He's got a few vices there. And now I’m thinking we shouldn’t be taking Husk at his word. That's an unreliable narrator. We should be taking the sober person at their word, which is Vaggie. And when she goes, “Ugh”, in reaction to Husk saying she hates herself, I don't think that's her evading what he said. I think that's her being like, you don't know what you're talking about.

[Rose]

It's another sinner trying to grandstand in front of her.

[Rain]

Yeah. And she's probably thinking “Oh my god. Shut up. You're not helping right now. You're not helping Charlie's vision by roasting everybody.” 

[Rose]

Mhmm.

[Rain]

Wow. Oh my god. Husk, Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. He gets away with a lot.

[Rose]

He gets away with a lot. He's very adorable. He's a cute, fluffy kitty with wings.

[Rain]

And that voice.

[Rose]

And being voiced by Keith David never hurts. But! Returning to Vaggie.

[Rain]

Vaggie and self worth. You totally changed my perspective on her and how she views herself. We've got evidence that she’s not self loathing. She has self worth. It's a little misplaced right now, I think.

[Rose]

It's misplaced, yes. Not in the strongest place it can be.

[Rain]

Yeah.

[Rose]

Because believing in somebody else and making that your vision works for some people.

[Rain]

It does.

[Rose]

That's not terrible.

[Rain]

A support role is good for some people.

[Rose] (1:02:06)

Not everybody has to be the main character with their own aspirations.

[Rain]

Some people really like being the person who says “Yeah. I like that vision. I'm going along with it. I'm gonna do what I can to make it come true.” We need those people.

[Rose]

We need those people a lot. And I think even when Vaggie gets a better locus of self worth and purpose, she's not going to deviate from helping Charlie.

[Rain]

No. No. Definitely not. Well, I like that we explored this because I wasn't here before. This is part of what makes her story so compelling.

[Rose]

Agreed, I love having at least one more person on the confident Vaggie train. Another thing is that, for me, she's the character that I'm the most like in real life.

[Rain] (1:03:18)

Yeah. I would agree.

[Rose]

I also grew up in a cult, had to get kicked out of that because of what you think is right -just like Vaggie. I had to find a place in a chaotic world that was not that gated performative community.

[Rain]

Yeah, you had to find your own place.

[Rose]

And I went from self loathing to being able to have boundaries. And I'd say I'm in the boundaries zone now.

[Rain]

And that's awesome!

[Rose]

So that's why I'm really invested in seeing Vaggie succeed and grow because I know where she's at. There's a place where maybe she doesn't have to do all that labor that she's doing. That she can also relax.

[Rain]

Yes. I wanna see her relaxed, which I know is hard, but it's possible.

[Rose]

I wanna see her genuinely happy on her own terms, not vigilant.

[Rain]

Yes. I'm kind of wondering, does she enjoy being the mom of the group and having to tell everyone to do the right thing all the time?

[Rose]

I don't think so.

[Rain]

Okay. That's my inclination. She doesn't love having to fill that role.

[Rose]

She's just doing a job.

[Rain]

Oh yeah. I would love to see her not have to do that. I have no idea how that would work with the hotel being a rehab center for sinners, but you know what? This would come from Charlie's growth.

[Rose]

Charlie's gonna have to step up.

[Rain]

Yeah. Which of course our main character has a lot of growth to do.

[Rose]

So much growth.

[Rain]

But she’s going to have Vaggie’s help though!

[Rose]

Without a doubt, Vaggie will continue to kick ass and be one of the best characters in the show.

[Rain]

Absolutely. Okay, we have so much more to say about Vaggie, but we basically had to cut this episode in half due to time constraints.

[Rose]

We could easily revisit Vaggie as a character in future episodes, but unfortunately, this is where we’re going to have to leave the discussion for today.

[Rain]

So to just to sum up our thoughts: Vaggie is a nuanced blend of femininity and masculinity, she’s a unique version of the stoic love interest, and with her future arc, we might see her dealing with learning to relax, or learning not to self sacrifice so much! And these are just a few of the reasons why Vaggie’s one of the best characters. And despite flying under the radar the first few watches, she is formidable

[Rose]

Absolutely formidable.

[Rain]

And we love Vaggie!

[Rose]

We love Vaggie. 

[Rain]

That’s going to be all from us today, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. And a little reminder to like and follow our podcast. Feel free to leave a review, and definitely leave us a comment! Until next time-

[In unison]

Thank you and goodnight!